Heroes special abilities and quirks - Page 2 - Guild Wars Forums

RegnorVex · Sep 27, 2011, 06:13 AM // 06:13

Hesitant to jump into this discussion, but I can't resist asking what authorities anyone has for their position? Your own personal experience cannot amount to anything more than anecdotal observations, so I'm wondering what the basis is for "definitely this" or "definitely that"?

David366 · Sep 27, 2011, 06:35 AM // 06:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuckles79

Some of it could be AI with weapons, but I'd like to think it's not that buggy. My Zhed refuses to use fire nuker spells, but he's equipped with an energy storage staff. Does that mean it's ER or GTFO?

yes two-leggs

turbo234 · Sep 27, 2011, 08:44 AM // 08:44

i've been thinking this for years. i think anet is holding out on us just to see us suffer.

Plutoman · Sep 27, 2011, 04:12 PM // 16:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by RegnorVex

Hesitant to jump into this discussion, but I can't resist asking what authorities anyone has for their position? Your own personal experience cannot amount to anything more than anecdotal observations, so I'm wondering what the basis is for "definitely this" or "definitely that"?

I know that everything he has pointed out so far is definitely false.

I've used Zhed as a fire nuker, an air nuker, and an ER ele, all with an energy storage staff, with no issues. The only difference is the bonuses and staff damage.

If someone can bring conclusive proof that the AI is different.. then sure. Otherwise, I'm quite confident it's the same AI. I'll even volunteer to go run tests tonight - putting heroes with identical builds, runes, and etc, and seeing if there is a difference in professions or heroes on the Isle of the Nameless.

Also -
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Hero_behavior

Discusses it all. Probably the most conclusive is that there is no documented wiki notes for heroes having different reactions. After all this time, that'd be one thing that would be noted.

Thorfinnr · Sep 28, 2011, 09:04 PM // 21:04

Call it what you want, and it may just be personal observation/bias...but I noted several things when I have been playing...and I will even include a henchmen dynamic that has cost me.

Enjoy!

1. I made the mistake of running Cynn and Mehnlo together. I know for a fact that I was over half dead, and as soon as Cynn took a hit, Mehnlo interrupted the heal he was casting(wether on me or not I have no way of knowing), targeted Cynn and healed her.

2. I have also made the mistake of running Koss and Melonni together. I have seen Koss break off an attack, and run half way across a map to help Melonni who had ran off on her own and aggro'd a 2nd group of Mandragor.

Conclusion...romance can make the AI act all screwy...lol

3. I have to say, I have ran all 3 EL Heroes as nukers...they all do well...but it just always SEEMS that Souske can work the burn better than the others. I have had great luck with Vekk as an Air EL as well. Seeing those little legs kicked up in the air as he slams his staff on the ground to Lightning Strike the crap outta some enemy is priceless.

4. Olias or Liv work well as MM as I have ran both in that way. I use Liv for my MM in Sab/Spiritway and she's awesome with AotL. As Necro/Rit healer...Olias SEEMED to be more active with his skills than Liv. MoW is a Curser...always and forever...Liv never came close to the way he doled out curses...at least in my OBSERVATIONS that is how it went.

5. I actually set up both Gwen and Norgu as Interrupters, same exact build, and I targeted them on 2 enemy White Mantle Monks in WiK. Gwen wrecked her monk up, and then helped finish off Norgu's...again this was my OBSERVATION, so take that for what its worth.

I agree, ANET says they all use the same basic AI. I have also seen behavior that supports this, granted. But sometimes I just have to think that there may be a "ghost in the machine" that maybe has given these AIs a little flair of personality.

Probable...of course not. That's why i stressed "SEEMED" and "OBSERVATION" above. Not to be rude or anything, just to show I agreed that this could just be how I viewed this activity. Others may see things happen differently.

But from some of the stuff I have seen them do...I just can't say its 100% impossible.

No matter what...its fun...and that's why I play.

And just an aside:

Welcome RegnorVex...good to see a new name with some good experience in MMOs...I have enjoyed reading your other posts.

Enjoy all!

Plutoman · Sep 28, 2011, 09:56 PM // 21:56

I appreciate the distinction between it 'seems this way' and it 'is this way' - not criticizing you here, don't think that - I'd like the point out that the difference between observations and an actual fact (or the equivalent theory, more so) is that an observation is one instance - because there ARE random variables built into the heroes. They don't always interrupt at exactly the same speeds, etc. And the difference in skills and movement and etc means most observations will tend to have differences. There's random variances in the skills, as there should be, with how the AI's use them. When an AI switches target, it doesn't always target the closest, for example (unless you've called a target). These random variables, along with impressions of characters, and the practice of human's give inanimate objects personalities, means that rumors start.

Regardless, it is all fun and games, and you should play it how you'd like - I totally agree with that observation on vekk + lighting xD

Quaker · Sep 29, 2011, 02:56 PM // 14:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuckles79

Some of it could be AI with weapons, but I'd like to think it's not that buggy. My Zhed refuses to use fire nuker spells, but he's equipped with an energy storage staff. Does that mean it's ER or GTFO?

You know you can change his weapon?

RegnorVex · Sep 29, 2011, 10:05 PM // 22:05

Thorfinnr, thanks for the welcome and the kind note! I can't recall a more fun game-forum experience, it's a real pleasure to be part of this community. And I definitely agree with you and Plutoman, it's all fun and games. ;-)

Enough observations can eventually amount to enough data to draw reliable deductions, I'm not criticizing or challenging anyone's personal experience, I have often been tempted to form opinions based on anecdotal experience because of how lopsided my own experience was in fact. But is the nature of randomness that I might roll 32 sevens in a row with my dice, but when you take into account the rolls that everyone in the casino is throwing over a week or two (or maybe even a day), the numbers will eventually reflect a truly random distribution; my short run + the long run = random distribution.

So, for example, if enough players over a long enough period have been able to observe similar behaviors, one could reasonably make certain conclusions. And as one poster has pointed out, no real consensus has emerged (even on wiki) over a very long period of time with plenty of data to sample. So I simply ask what basis there is apart from personal observation for the strong positions being advanced. Have the devs said anything on this topic?

Interesting discussion, whatever the answer. I remember swearing that there was "anti-camping code" in EverQuest ...

Silmar Alech · Sep 30, 2011, 09:36 AM // 09:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by RegnorVex

So I simply ask what basis there is apart from personal observation for the strong positions being advanced. Have the devs said anything on this topic?

As far as I know Arenanet never said anything about this topic. This leads me to the conclusion that there is in fact nothing to say, because there is nothing. In 5 years of hero presence and monthly game updates, there was never a single update or bugfix note about a personality-AI of a certain hero. If there were any personal AI for a single hero, there were bugs or shortcomings as well, and thus resulting bugfixes or enhancements. But there were none. Not a single one.

Every update with the hero AI was global. It either was a global hero AI update or a update of the AI usage of a certain skill. Never was an update connected to a single named hero.

Aesir The Warrior · Sep 30, 2011, 05:33 PM // 17:33

Call me crazy, but Vekk and Ogden always get way behind the rest of the party... it happens all the time...

Short legs?

dagrdagaz · Oct 01, 2011, 09:55 AM // 09:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aesir The Warrior

Call me crazy, but Vekk and Ogden always get way behind the rest of the party... it happens all the time...

Short legs?

Its a skill/build thing i am sure.

There r some reasons why some heroes tend to get behind.
Ele's with attunements will stop to recast them.
My N/Rt, who uses healing/defensive spirits, also stops to recast them.
If u or any H/H uses minions, your healer H/H will continue to try heal the minions.
If the minions fall behind so may or will one or more of yer healers.

GODh · Oct 01, 2011, 10:33 AM // 10:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by dagrdagaz

Its a skill/build thing i am sure.

There r some reasons why some heroes tend to get behind.
Ele's with attunements will stop to recast them.
My N/Rt, who uses healing/defensive spirits, also stops to recast them.
If u or any H/H uses minions, your healer H/H will continue to try heal the minions.
If the minions fall behind so may or will one or more of yer healers.

I agree on this... i also think most problems with heroes are caused by the builds they are using, especially when you have duplicate skills/spells in your team.

gremlin · Oct 01, 2011, 10:37 AM // 10:37

Things I know are absolutely true that are not.

General Morgain always rushes ahead causing agro far more than others.
Vek always gets into the middle of melee, so does Dunkaro.
Olias Lags behind until combat then gets far too close and dies.

All of those were caused by the builds I was using but at the time I was convinced it was the AI.

Mind you it is true that my necro character gets far more bows dropping as loot so I used her for farming green bows and it worked very well.

edit I should have added a smiley face as I was joking whatever my perception of the drop rate I am aware its all random.

Can of worms sealed though a few escaped.

wilebill · Oct 01, 2011, 11:46 AM // 11:46

"Mind you it is true that my necro character gets far more bows dropping as loot so I used her for farming green bows and it worked very well."

Gremlin, that is opening another can of worms not easily recanned. Do different player classes have different luck? Especially with regard to weapons drop classes?

Looks like it to me. Is there a set of hidden luck factors that get set at character creation? Don't know how it works, but it is there. Sure, the official position is that drops are all just a matter of the dice roll and it doesn't matter who rolls the dice. But that is not my experience.

Plutoman · Oct 01, 2011, 02:12 PM // 14:12

Oh god.. Drops. Yes, it IS all random. It's all subjective. That's an extremely common misinterpretation. Check out a game like conquerclub.com, where there's rants on how the dice rolls are all rigged up in certain ways.. even though statistics have gone through and proved the opposite. People are still convinced they are biased in some ways towards accounts, towards the time of day, and more. >.<

http://www.lifehack.org/articles/lif...-bad-luck.html

Hehe. There's nothing odd about the random rolls for weapons. Each mob has a drop table with a percentage chance - if there's something odd, chances are, that's because the drop table for that mob might be a bit odd - or your luck is just bad/good. I can't imagine you've gone and farmed the same mob hundreds of times with different classes to mark differences.. and if there were, we'd certainly have seen it with Vaettir farming - yet, we haven't.

Oct 01, 2011, 10:37 AM // 10:37	#33
gremlin Furnace Stoker Join Date: Oct 2006 Guild: GWAR Profession: Me/Mo	Things I know are absolutely true that are not. General Morgain always rushes ahead causing agro far more than others. Vek always gets into the middle of melee, so does Dunkaro. Olias Lags behind until combat then gets far too close and dies. All of those were caused by the builds I was using but at the time I was convinced it was the AI. Mind you it is true that my necro character gets far more bows dropping as loot so I used her for farming green bows and it worked very well. edit I should have added a smiley face as I was joking whatever my perception of the drop rate I am aware its all random. Can of worms sealed though a few escaped. Last edited by gremlin; Oct 01, 2011 at 06:24 PM // 18:24..

Oct 01, 2011, 02:12 PM // 14:12	#35
Plutoman Krytan Explorer Join Date: Jul 2010 Profession: E/	Oh god.. Drops. Yes, it IS all random. It's all subjective. That's an extremely common misinterpretation. Check out a game like conquerclub.com, where there's rants on how the dice rolls are all rigged up in certain ways.. even though statistics have gone through and proved the opposite. People are still convinced they are biased in some ways towards accounts, towards the time of day, and more. >.< http://www.lifehack.org/articles/lif...-bad-luck.html Hehe. There's nothing odd about the random rolls for weapons. Each mob has a drop table with a percentage chance - if there's something odd, chances are, that's because the drop table for that mob might be a bit odd - or your luck is just bad/good. I can't imagine you've gone and farmed the same mob hundreds of times with different classes to mark differences.. and if there were, we'd certainly have seen it with Vaettir farming - yet, we haven't. Last edited by Plutoman; Oct 01, 2011 at 02:18 PM // 14:18..

Sep 27, 2011, 06:13 AM // 06:13	#21
RegnorVex Ascalonian Squire Join Date: Sep 2011	Hesitant to jump into this discussion, but I can't resist asking what authorities anyone has for their position? Your own personal experience cannot amount to anything more than anecdotal observations, so I'm wondering what the basis is for "definitely this" or "definitely that"?

Sep 27, 2011, 08:44 AM // 08:44	#23
turbo234 Wilds Pathfinder Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: WI Profession: Mo/	i've been thinking this for years. i think anet is holding out on us just to see us suffer.

Sep 28, 2011, 09:04 PM // 21:04	#25
Thorfinnr Ascalonian Squire Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Indiana Guild: Dark Brotherhood of Syn Profession: W/Rt	Call it what you want, and it may just be personal observation/bias...but I noted several things when I have been playing...and I will even include a henchmen dynamic that has cost me. Enjoy! 1. I made the mistake of running Cynn and Mehnlo together. I know for a fact that I was over half dead, and as soon as Cynn took a hit, Mehnlo interrupted the heal he was casting(wether on me or not I have no way of knowing), targeted Cynn and healed her. 2. I have also made the mistake of running Koss and Melonni together. I have seen Koss break off an attack, and run half way across a map to help Melonni who had ran off on her own and aggro'd a 2nd group of Mandragor. Conclusion...romance can make the AI act all screwy...lol 3. I have to say, I have ran all 3 EL Heroes as nukers...they all do well...but it just always SEEMS that Souske can work the burn better than the others. I have had great luck with Vekk as an Air EL as well. Seeing those little legs kicked up in the air as he slams his staff on the ground to Lightning Strike the crap outta some enemy is priceless. 4. Olias or Liv work well as MM as I have ran both in that way. I use Liv for my MM in Sab/Spiritway and she's awesome with AotL. As Necro/Rit healer...Olias SEEMED to be more active with his skills than Liv. MoW is a Curser...always and forever...Liv never came close to the way he doled out curses...at least in my OBSERVATIONS that is how it went. 5. I actually set up both Gwen and Norgu as Interrupters, same exact build, and I targeted them on 2 enemy White Mantle Monks in WiK. Gwen wrecked her monk up, and then helped finish off Norgu's...again this was my OBSERVATION, so take that for what its worth. I agree, ANET says they all use the same basic AI. I have also seen behavior that supports this, granted. But sometimes I just have to think that there may be a "ghost in the machine" that maybe has given these AIs a little flair of personality. Probable...of course not. That's why i stressed "SEEMED" and "OBSERVATION" above. Not to be rude or anything, just to show I agreed that this could just be how I viewed this activity. Others may see things happen differently. But from some of the stuff I have seen them do...I just can't say its 100% impossible. No matter what...its fun...and that's why I play. And just an aside: Welcome RegnorVex...good to see a new name with some good experience in MMOs...I have enjoyed reading your other posts. Enjoy all!

Sep 28, 2011, 09:56 PM // 21:56	#26
Plutoman Krytan Explorer Join Date: Jul 2010 Profession: E/	I appreciate the distinction between it 'seems this way' and it 'is this way' - not criticizing you here, don't think that - I'd like the point out that the difference between observations and an actual fact (or the equivalent theory, more so) is that an observation is one instance - because there ARE random variables built into the heroes. They don't always interrupt at exactly the same speeds, etc. And the difference in skills and movement and etc means most observations will tend to have differences. There's random variances in the skills, as there should be, with how the AI's use them. When an AI switches target, it doesn't always target the closest, for example (unless you've called a target). These random variables, along with impressions of characters, and the practice of human's give inanimate objects personalities, means that rumors start. Regardless, it is all fun and games, and you should play it how you'd like - I totally agree with that observation on vekk + lighting xD

Sep 29, 2011, 10:05 PM // 22:05	#28
RegnorVex Ascalonian Squire Join Date: Sep 2011	Thorfinnr, thanks for the welcome and the kind note! I can't recall a more fun game-forum experience, it's a real pleasure to be part of this community. And I definitely agree with you and Plutoman, it's all fun and games. ;-) Enough observations can eventually amount to enough data to draw reliable deductions, I'm not criticizing or challenging anyone's personal experience, I have often been tempted to form opinions based on anecdotal experience because of how lopsided my own experience was in fact. But is the nature of randomness that I might roll 32 sevens in a row with my dice, but when you take into account the rolls that everyone in the casino is throwing over a week or two (or maybe even a day), the numbers will eventually reflect a truly random distribution; my short run + the long run = random distribution. So, for example, if enough players over a long enough period have been able to observe similar behaviors, one could reasonably make certain conclusions. And as one poster has pointed out, no real consensus has emerged (even on wiki) over a very long period of time with plenty of data to sample. So I simply ask what basis there is apart from personal observation for the strong positions being advanced. Have the devs said anything on this topic? Interesting discussion, whatever the answer. I remember swearing that there was "anti-camping code" in EverQuest ...

Sep 30, 2011, 05:33 PM // 17:33	#30
Aesir The Warrior Frost Gate Guardian Join Date: Jan 2011	Call me crazy, but Vekk and Ogden always get way behind the rest of the party... it happens all the time... Short legs?

Oct 01, 2011, 11:46 AM // 11:46	#34
wilebill Desert Nomad Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Mt Vernon, Ohio Guild: Band of the Hawk Profession: W/Mo	"Mind you it is true that my necro character gets far more bows dropping as loot so I used her for farming green bows and it worked very well." Gremlin, that is opening another can of worms not easily recanned. Do different player classes have different luck? Especially with regard to weapons drop classes? Looks like it to me. Is there a set of hidden luck factors that get set at character creation? Don't know how it works, but it is there. Sure, the official position is that drops are all just a matter of the dice roll and it doesn't matter who rolls the dice. But that is not my experience.